A rational discussion about arming teachers

"shop-teacher" (shop-teacher) 02/27/2018 at 21:10 • Filed to: I can't friggin believe we had to have this conversation. Seriously, fuck.

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I got a call a few nights ago from my dad. It was unusual, because he was concerned about me. I’m not sure when was the last time that I received a call from Dad that concerned me ... or even if I ever have received such a call. I know my dad loves me, but lets just say he’s very wrapped up in his own little world and problems and leave it at that. So, this got my attention.

He wanted to know what I thought about arming teachers. I cut him off before he could fully state his case, but I surmised that he was leaning in favor of it.

A little background here on my dad and I. My dad took me shooting when I was four years old. I remember it well, and I had a great time. I think I was in my mid or late 20's the next time my dad went shooting. My dad gets a bit obsessive about things. He had a 15+ year stretch where he was consumed by fishing, but he turned his attention to guns when he got bored of fishing, and has since bought a whole bunch of them. Myself, I first got a FOID card in 2006, so I could buy a gun. I’ve since renewed that card, but still haven’t purchased a firearm. I have no problems with responsible personal gun ownership, it just hasn’t made it to the top of my list of things to spend my money on. That money always goes to cars and racing. (Shocking, right!?!?)

Anyways, I cut my dad off and told him why I’m against arming teachers. We had a nice rational discussion on the topic. I will sum up my arguments thusly.

1) There’s no way you could possibly train teachers well enough, to be effective in a firefight. Even cops aren’t well enough trained for this. There just isn’t enough time or money in the world, to make teachers an effective weapon.

2) I do not want the responsibility to pulling the trigger in a school. What if I miss? What if I shot an innocent? What if a ricochet takes out a kid?

3) I honestly think myself and my students are safer doing what I am currently trained to do, than if I had a gun.

My current training is to lock the doors, hide the kids in my storeroom, and hide next to the door with a hammer. If anyone smashes/shoots out the window to reach in and open the door, I wail on them with the hammer.

Dad liked this plan, it made sense to him. Then he inquired about the hammer. He’s a contractor/carpenter, so he had thoughts on this.

“What kind of hammer do you have? A big 22 ouncer, with straight claws?”

“No,” I replied. “I have a bunch of 16 ounce curved claws.”

“I’d like you to get a bigger hammer. Get a big ass kicker, with straight claws and a waffle head. Something you could really fuck them up with. It’ll make me feel better.”

The son abides.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > shop-teacher 02/27/2018 at 21:18

7

This is the email we got from school today. I agree!

Dr. Heather Davis Schmidt

Superintendent

Whitefish School District

The national debate on gun laws and school safety has intensified since the tragic recent events in Florida. While I don’t wish to debate the intent of the Second Amendment in the modern era, I do want to share a few thoughts about safety and security in Whitefish Schools and our school culture.

Let me first be very clear about one policy debate. Schools are no place for guns. While some reactionary politicians chant again for arming schoolteachers with concealed weapons, that is clearly the wrong direction.

Our focus must be on learning and the learning environment. I personally think, no matter how well trained, that a staff member carrying a gun in school would change the whole dynamic of the classroom. Our teachers must be focused on the best interests of students. Teachers have a very different role than law enforcement.

According to the National School Superintendent’s Association research, “Schools remain the safest place for children, and today’s schools are considerably safer than they were 20 years ago. Over the last decade, the number of schools reporting an incident of violent crime fell by more than 20 percent. Further, an April 2012 poll found that 84% of parents believe their child is safe in school.”

“Yet despite successful efforts by school districts to reduce gun violence, each year 3,000 children and teens are killed by guns and 15,000 are injured outside of schools. Overall, America’s children are 16 times more likely to be murdered through gun violence than children in any other of the world’s top 25 industrialized countries. Thus, a solution to preventing the killing of innocent youth cannot be the sole responsibility of the school community.”

While this national debate continues, I have been working locally with a Safety and Security Citizens Work Group for the past five months. Following the cyber-terror attacks on schools in the Flathead Valley this past fall, the Whitefish School District Board of Trustees identified a need for a facilitated conversation about safety and security in our schools. The work group has included representatives from fire and law enforcement, teachers, support staff, administration, local business owners, construction and mental health experts, and parents. The work group will make recommendations to the school board at our March 20 work session.

Over the course of the work group’s conversation and research it became clear that the dynamics surrounding school safety are evolving. We need to not only be concerned about the physical security of our schools, but we must also ensure that our staff is trained—and focus on the culture we create in our schools. Our kids need to feel safe, and need to learn in a welcoming, friendly environment.

Looking at the physical environment, we continue to upgrade our schools with modern security technology including cameras and alarms. The work group will also recommend additional technology-based security measures and ask for consideration of other physical security upgrades.

On the training side, we have focused on empowering our teachers and staff with “Run, Lock, Fight” techniques. We prioritize this training and refresher training for all staff in Whitefish Schools in collaboration with local law enforcement. Whitefish Schools are the leaders in the Flathead Valley with this training and we will continue to work with other districts to help them add this additional and essential layer of training.

But even this is not enough. I think the most important conclusions we have reached are that the safest schools have cultures of trust, where all people are included and feel like they belong. This extends throughout the culture of the entire community.

In Whitefish Schools, we continue working to embed this type of caring and inclusive culture and we all need to take collective responsibility for the safety and security of schools and town. We need to care and look out for one another. I think that the Whitefish community already does a good job in this area, but we can always improve.

Everyone should always be vigilant to potential concerns or suspicious behaviors in our schools and community and to report those concerns. I want you to know that we are listening. Please don’t ever be afraid to speak up. We have mechanisms and systems in place to help and we can investigate any concerns in a way that respects the dignity of all involved.

I’d also like to remind the community, families, and students that there are many resources available to talk with kids about traumatic events. Counselors and school psychologists are available to help continue any conversations as needed to promote positive coping and problem solving skills. Contact us so we can direct you to the most appropriate resources.

As we have all seen in the news, students across the country are using their voice to talk about violence in schools and to create some real progress in the gun law debate, especially as it relates to access to automatic weapons. Democracy in action is powerful and expressing this voice in a safe and non-disruptive way is critical to our democratic process. We are here to listen and support our students. Let’s keep the discussion going.

Connect with us

Dr. Heather Davis Schmidt

Superintendent

!!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!!

Rust and Dust - Oppositelock Forever > shop-teacher 02/27/2018 at 21:22

6

A couple things:

1. No tax breaks for pencils and paper, but here’s your CQC training and firearm. Seriously?

2.:

JeepJeremy > shop-teacher 02/27/2018 at 21:26

0

That’s a nasty hammer! I like it!

Brian McKay > shop-teacher 02/27/2018 at 21:26

3

I’m an Army veteran and a teacher who would like to shoot a 19-year-old wacko who tries to kill my students or colleagues.

Wagon Guy drives a Boostang > shop-teacher 02/27/2018 at 21:27

3

My middle daughter is studying to become a teacher. It is her goal and her passion, and despite her mother’s misgivings and all of the things going on in the world I want her to achieve her dream. She will be a math and science teacher, and is currently majoring in Mathematics Education and Chemistry. She’s awesome.

I say that so that I can also say, I am strongly against giving teachers guns, for all of the reasons you’ve stated and more. I think having a gun in the classroom opens up yet another avenue for potential school shooters. Keep the guns out of the schools, all of them.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > shop-teacher 02/27/2018 at 21:27

3

You da man.

I’ve gotten my wife to agree to attend the Iola, Wisconsin swap meet next Summer, with a plan to drive south afterward across the Mackinac Bridge and then through Chicagoland to visit my sister and meet Miss Mercedes and, I hope, to have whatever the best fries are in your neck of the woods, with you.

I think of myself standing amidst my students and I just can’t see myself being in their eyes with a gun in my hand. Just can’t get there. Gotta figure out some other plan.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Rust and Dust - Oppositelock Forever 02/27/2018 at 21:29

4

I wish our POTUS was as clever and thoughtful and kind as Archie Bunker.

benjrblant > shop-teacher 02/27/2018 at 21:32

1

I really like the Stiletto 14oz Ti hammers. Link .

They claim that a lighter titanium head allows for higher velocity and therefore equivalent striking force of a heavier hammer (P=M*V) but with the upside of not weighing nearly as much if you have to drag it around all day.

Urambo Tauro > shop-teacher 02/27/2018 at 21:33

0

Solid hammer, solid plan. I like it.

CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever > shop-teacher 02/27/2018 at 21:35

1

That’s a fine looking 

shop-teacher > CarsofFortLangley - Oppo Forever 02/27/2018 at 21:37

0

Why thank you! :)

ttyymmnn > shop-teacher 02/27/2018 at 21:39

3

“I’d like you to get a bigger hammer. Get a big ass kicker, with straight claws and a waffle head. Something you could really fuck them up with. It’ll make me feel better.”

I like this.

There was a recent op-ed in the WaPo written by Anthony Swofford, a college English professor, retired Marine, and the author of Jarhead . If you haven’t read it, I think you should.

I Was a Marine. I Don’t Want a Gun in My Classroom

WilliamsSW > shop-teacher 02/27/2018 at 21:39

1

Well put.

Sweet hammer too!

f86sabre > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 02/27/2018 at 21:39

4

That was a well thought out message.

WilliamsSW > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 02/27/2018 at 21:41

1

Great stuff thanks!

shop-teacher > Wagon Guy drives a Boostang 02/27/2018 at 21:42

1

Agreed.

Good for her for following her passion. I try to think statistically, and statistically we’ll all be fine.

Maybe get her a nice hammer though :)

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > shop-teacher 02/27/2018 at 21:45

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I really don’t like framing hammers, I prefer a smooth head straight claw 20 oz hammer. It will do 90% of what a framing hammer can do without putting pecker head marks over everything.

shop-teacher > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 02/27/2018 at 21:49

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“Gotta figure out some other plan.”

Exactly. I don’t pretend to know what, but not that.

Cool! I look forward to meeting you. I’ll have to think about the best fries in these parts. There are so many options ...

Phyrxes once again has a wagon! > shop-teacher 02/27/2018 at 21:50

1

First, I totally agree with your stance on things.

My students noted that I rearranged the science lab the other day. All the ring stands which are 1 inch diameter rods on steel plates are now nearish the door instead of in the back. I don’t like the idea that it might be a three musketeers or highlander moment but one of those with an overhead or baseball swing is going to do some damage.

Maxima Speed > shop-teacher 02/27/2018 at 21:54

2

I dont believe teachers should be school trained and armed as part of their job. You can’t ask someone to do that, however. I do believe firmly that a teacher should be allowed to conceal carry if they so desire. That goes for colleges too, also at colleges students should be allowed to carry.

winterlegacy, here 'till the end > shop-teacher 02/27/2018 at 21:56

3

Fighting fire with fire has shown to be highly ineffective. The entire house tends to burn down.

shop-teacher > benjrblant 02/27/2018 at 21:58

1

I have a 15 oz Stiletto at home, it’s fantastic! Man, was expensive though!

The titanium doesn’t deform as much as steel when you hit with it, so it’s capable of transferring more force per ounce than steel. I met some of the engineers at a trade show years ago. Fascinating stuff.

shop-teacher > ttyymmnn 02/27/2018 at 21:59

1

Thanks, I will read that.

shop-teacher > Phyrxes once again has a wagon! 02/27/2018 at 21:59

0

Good call!

shop-teacher > Maxima Speed 02/27/2018 at 22:03

1

I understand where you’re coming from, and I don’t judge you for it. I don’t agree, however. Too many minors for a normal citizen to be firing around. Odds are very high that they will miss and hurt a kid (or worse).

Not sure how I feel about the college part, I haven’t given that much thought.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > shop-teacher 02/27/2018 at 22:03

5

I own a few guns. I like my guns. But, FUCK the NRA with a splintery post. Guns don’t belong in schools. Period. End of discussion.

shop-teacher > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 02/27/2018 at 22:04

1

I didn’t use one for years, but when I tried one they really do frame so much easier. I keep one around, but I don’t use it much.

Duck Duck Grey Duck FTMFW! > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 02/27/2018 at 22:11

1

Woo! I think you will be thoroughly pleased. Make sure to bring comfortable walking shoes.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > shop-teacher 02/27/2018 at 22:14

0

Yeah but I have only framed with a hammer never, always used an air gun.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > shop-teacher 02/27/2018 at 22:17

1

I have full faith and confidence in your abilities in this area.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Duck Duck Grey Duck FTMFW! 02/27/2018 at 22:18

1

And some cash.

LOREM IPSUM > shop-teacher 02/27/2018 at 22:20

0

Just about every day I see a new story in the news about yet another teacher getting caught in a sexual relationship with one of their students.

All I’m saying is some of them don’t exactly show good judgement.

Also, kids being kids, I could see them pushing the wrong teacher juuuust a little too far one day, and..

That said, I don’t think you should be disallowed to carry on school grounds if you posess a concealed carry permit. I wouldn’t go passing out sidearms to everyone with a teaching certificate though.

LOREM IPSUM > shop-teacher 02/27/2018 at 22:26

3

On the flipside... In an active shooter situation, if you pull the trigger, someone could be inadvertently hurt or killed.

If you don’t pull the trigger, someone is guaranteed to be hurt or killed.

Shitty that we even need to be having this discussion. :(

shop-teacher > Urambo Tauro 02/27/2018 at 22:35

1

Our school resource officer came up with the plan and trained me. I think it’s a good one.

shop-teacher > JeepJeremy 02/27/2018 at 22:35

0

Thanks! :)

shop-teacher > WilliamsSW 02/27/2018 at 22:35

1

Why thank you sir.

SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media > shop-teacher 02/27/2018 at 22:44

1

This’d be the hammer I’d have bought you. That said...teachers carrying firearms in class? Why is the USA the only 1st world country where even some of its citizens think this is a good idea? Oh yeah that’s why....

shop-teacher > LOREM IPSUM 02/27/2018 at 22:45

1

It is the worst thing ever that we have this debate.

In a lockdown situation, my students will have three locked doors between them and a shooter. I will be behind door number one, with my face ripping hammer. I will fuck that asshole up if they try to get in my room, with no chance of hurting a kid accidentally.

LOREM IPSUM > shop-teacher 02/27/2018 at 22:47

1

Let’s hope that hammer never has to hit anything other than a nail. (Preferably not of the finger variety.)

shop-teacher > LOREM IPSUM 02/27/2018 at 22:47

1

Very few teachers have the baseline personality to be trainable to be effective in a fire fight.

A concealed carry permit is not nearly a high enough standard to be carrying in a building full of minors who are required by law to be there.

shop-teacher > LOREM IPSUM 02/27/2018 at 22:49

1

Absolutely!

I bought a box of sinkers to teach the kids how to pound a nail properly. May as well get some learning out of this hammer too :)

shop-teacher > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 02/27/2018 at 22:50

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Intensive research will be done :)

Do you like soggy fries? I ask because I do, but a lot of people think I’m freaking nuts.

shop-teacher > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 02/27/2018 at 22:51

1

Your superintendent has a much better way with words than ours.

Spanfeller is a twat > shop-teacher 02/27/2018 at 22:52

1

Mass shootings in the US from 2019-onwards:

“A depressed teenager knocked out his teacher with a hammer and took his 1911, shooting 10 kids before killing himself”

shop-teacher > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 02/27/2018 at 22:53

1

Me too mostly, but sometimes a well placed sinker does wonders.

I student taught in a building trades program. We had high school kids building a house. We framed everything in that class by hand, for a variety of reasons. That’s when I tried a waffle headed hammer finally.

shop-teacher > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 02/27/2018 at 22:53

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If only!

shop-teacher > SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media 02/27/2018 at 22:55

0

A roofing hatchet. That’s an interesting idea ...

shop-teacher > Spanfeller is a twat 02/27/2018 at 22:56

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I honestly can’t tell if you’re kid or not.

Spanfeller is a twat > shop-teacher 02/27/2018 at 23:02

1

Should teachers have guns?

No.

Should there be a way to protect againts a mass shooting without increasing gun control (because realistically that’s very unlikely) be it armed guards, metal detectors, better relations with the local police force and more psychological support?

Yes.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > shop-teacher 02/27/2018 at 23:04

1

Can you say pecker head straight faced to high school boys?

wafflesnfalafel > shop-teacher 02/27/2018 at 23:05

1

Had a similar conversation when I started working down town 20 years ago, (he grew up in a sh!tty part of town.) “Dad, you didn’t raise no dummy, I will be safe but will beat the cr@p out of anybody that d!cks with me.” He smiled and we were fine since.

shop-teacher > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 02/27/2018 at 23:09

2

Not a chance.

I teach middle school now. We can’t even assemble anything with nuts and bolts without someone shaking uncontrollably at the word nut.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > shop-teacher 02/27/2018 at 23:20

1

Well the plumbing section should be fun with all the couplings, nipples, female and male ends...

shop-teacher > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 02/27/2018 at 23:21

0

Oh yeah! Bigtimepartyfun!

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > benjrblant 02/27/2018 at 23:25

0

Titanium hammer? I didn’t know that was a thing, now I want one.

smobgirl > shop-teacher 02/28/2018 at 02:14

1

Even if I had a gun and was in a situation like this, I can’t imagine pulling the trigger on a student I knew. I mean...even the worst of them are like my own kids (which I don’t have, so this is obviously not the best comparison). But I teach because I want to help kids help themselves to be their own best self. Shooting one, even one in the middle of a rampage, goes against every instinct of my being. I don’t want a gun. I don’t want to be blamed for not shooting a student, and I couldn’t live with myself if I did shoot one.

duurtlang > winterlegacy, here 'till the end 02/28/2018 at 03:20

1

Exactly this. Arming teachers with firearms would create far more problems than it would solve. It’s the worst idea ever. Additionally, it tries (and fails) to address a symptom of the main problem, it does not in any way affect the real issue. The real issue being that the wrong people having way too easy access to highly efficient very lethal weapons, legally and illegally.

Distraxi's idea of perfection is a Jagroen > shop-teacher 02/28/2018 at 03:37

1

That 2nd point is why it’s never going to happen. Can you imagine the magnitude of the lawsuit, the first time some undertrained and inexperienced teacher unloads a clip in the general direction of an intruder (real or imagined) and hits a kid in the classroom across the hall? No sane school board is going within a thousand yards of enabling that one.

SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media > shop-teacher 02/28/2018 at 04:08

1

TheD0k_2many toys 2little time > shop-teacher 02/28/2018 at 04:25

1

we have plenty of veterans with tactical training and no jobs. Hire them to protect schools.

Or go back to the good days when all the students had guns in their trucks cause parents taught their kids and we lived in a normal society

shop-teacher > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 02/28/2018 at 06:59

0

They’re pretty BA!

shop-teacher > smobgirl 02/28/2018 at 07:02

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Yeah, I can’t get there mentally.

shop-teacher > ttyymmnn 02/28/2018 at 07:10

1

That was a great read, thanks.

Think about all that training. There is no possible way to get teachers 1/100th of that training.

BigBlock440 > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 02/28/2018 at 08:09

0

Problem is, people bring them there anyway and sometimes do bad things with them.

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > BigBlock440 02/28/2018 at 08:11

0

Problem is, people can easily get them, bring them in and do bad things with them.

BigBlock440 > winterlegacy, here 'till the end 02/28/2018 at 08:15

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That’s actually not true, it’s very effective at putting fires out. Oil fires use explosives to literally blow the fire out, forest fires use controlled burns to burn up the fuel in smaller fires before the larger one gets there, etc.

ttyymmnn > shop-teacher 02/28/2018 at 08:39

1

Think about how much training cops get, but in the heat of battle, even they can’t hit anything.

BigBlock440 > Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire 02/28/2018 at 08:57

0

And that’s not going to change unless we make it harder for them to get in and do bad things with them

Arch Duke Maxyenko, Shit Talk Extraordinaire > BigBlock440 02/28/2018 at 09:18

0

Exactly what needs to happen

just-a-scratch > shop-teacher 02/28/2018 at 09:56

1

It’s a bad idea. Even if a teacher is willing to get trained and prepared for it, arming teachers would pervert (not sexual) the duties and responsibilities of teaching.

I know I have not presented a thoroughly rational case, maybe when I have some more time.

benjrblant > shop-teacher 02/28/2018 at 10:05

0

It’s definitely on my want list, though I’m not sure I can justify the cost for as infrequently as I use a framing hammer. Cool as hell though!

shop-teacher > ttyymmnn 02/28/2018 at 11:51

1

Yep, I remember that one. That’s the kind of stuff I’m talking about. You couldn’t even get teachers as well trained as those cops, and they still missed everything. Imagine if there was a group of kids in the room with all those bullets fighting.

shop-teacher > just-a-scratch 02/28/2018 at 12:10

0

I get you mean, and I agree. To me, the even bigger problem is that there is no possible way for that training to be good enough. The only people capable of remaining cool in a fire fight, are those who train for that specifically, constantly, front line soldiers.

shop-teacher > benjrblant 02/28/2018 at 12:13

0

It’s a wildly unnecessary item for me as well now that I’m not full time in the trades. Mine has a switchable head. It came with a waffle head, but I usually keep a smooth head on it. The face of the head is attached with a big allen-head screw from the back side.

Brian, The Life of > shop-teacher 02/28/2018 at 12:30

1

That’s a nice hammer.

just-a-scratch > shop-teacher 02/28/2018 at 13:00

1

Teachers don’t have the time to maintain two two professions simultaneously.

Weapons in a clasroom will change class in a bad way I think. It’s likely to bring in lots of tension and be further limiting normal interactions between students and teachers.

Also, I don’t think concealment would really keep any students from figuring it out. Seeing the same people 100 or more times annually makes you notice a lot.

winterlegacy, here 'till the end > duurtlang 02/28/2018 at 13:09

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As I try to explain to people - we’re trying to solve issues at the surface, not at the root.

winterlegacy, here 'till the end > BigBlock440 02/28/2018 at 13:10

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That is why I specifically used the house example.

shop-teacher > just-a-scratch 02/28/2018 at 13:23

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Agreed on all counts.

RangerSmith > BigBlock440 03/05/2018 at 01:02

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Many inner city schools that have had violence or threats of violence in the past, have increased security successfully and are unsurprisingly not the schools involved in these mass shootings. Metal detectors, school ID’s visibly worn, single point of locked entry during school hours, etc.

School administrators that have successfully implemented security programs are already out there with programs in place. Waiting for a general fix at the Federal or State level is a waste of time and lives. The majority of us that are tax paying citizens, need to put the pressure on our local school districts and school boards.